Do We Believe in the Separation of Church and State?

Episode Outline:
0:00 What does separation of church and state actually mean in America today?
1:31 Bart checks in from London and reflects on his recent Greek islands educational tour
3:59 Why this topic matters personally for Bart as a longtime professor at public universities
6:30 Would ancient people have recognized a distinction between religion and politics?
8:20 Why early Christians were unusual in arguing for something like religious separation from the state
10:54 What changed after Constantine, and why Christians stopped wanting separation
11:15 Bart reflects on evangelicalism, politics, and the rise of the Moral Majority
13:45 What the Moral Majority was and how it reshaped evangelical political priorities
17:19 How school prayer, abortion, and public religion became flashpoints in U.S. politics
20:12 Why the personal beliefs of the Founding Fathers do not determine modern state religion
21:52 What deism is, and why many Founders were not evangelical Christians
23:16 Louisiana’s Ten Commandments law: history lesson or religious agenda?
26:26 Stephen Colbert, Lynn Westmoreland, and the irony of politicians not knowing the Ten Commandments
28:29 Why the actual historical meaning of the commandments is more complicated than people assume
31:02 Bart’s conclusion: Ten Commandments displays are symbolic moves toward Christian nationalism
31:30 Weekly Update: Bart discusses the pain of writing his current book
34:00 Reminder: Amy-Jill Levine’s upcoming course on the parables of Jesus
36:52 Listener Q&A: King James translation, forgiveness of sins, how Jesus supported himself, other men named Jesus, sola scriptura and Christian holidays, and whether John and the Synoptics describe two different Jesuses
48:11 Final summary: public Bible displays are not neutral history but part of a broader contemporary struggle over religion and government


Episode Description

For a country that was apparently founded on the separation of church and state, US politics seems to be deeply enmeshed with Christianity. Now, Louisiana classrooms are required by state law to display the ten commandments…which definitely seems to be blurring the lines between church and state! Today we’re talking about what the separation of church and state actually means, whether it’s a concept ancient Christians would have recognized, and whether a religious foundation necessitates that a modern society be guided by religion.

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Megan asks Bart:

- Why is this an important topic to discuss?

- The First Amendment has two clauses that relate to this topic - the establishment clause, which prevents the government from establishing a state-sponsored church, and the “free exercise” clause, which protects a citizen’s right to practice their religion as they choose, as long as it doesn’t go against either public morals, or a compelling government interest. Were either of these things a concept for ancient people?

- You said that Christianity was an exception to this, can you comment on that?

- What is the moral majority?

- Do you think that a foundational role necessitates a continued importance?

- Proponents of the law say that it’s not a purely religious requirement, rather that it serves an historical purpose as the ten commandments are “...foundational documents of our state and national government”. What are your views on this as a professor in a university?

- If many of the people arguing that the 10 commandments are so important aren’t actually familiar with what they say, is this more about control and a display of Christian supremacy?